“Your next point is on page 90, it refers to the Old Testament beliefs of what it was like to be dead.” Isaac runs his finger under the words to keep his place with the constant bouncing of the truck cab. Carefully he reads them out loud. “Page 90.
This combination of themes is taken up and repeated in what becomes the regular formula for dying kings. David ‘slept with his ancestors, and was buried in the city of David’, which is the more interesting since his ancestors were not buried there. ‘Sleeping with one’s ancestors’, in other words, was not simply a way of saying that one was buried in the same grave or cave, but that one had gone to the world of the dead, there to be reunited with one’s forebears. The minimal sort of ‘life’ that the shades had in Sheol, or in the grave, approximated more to sleep than to anything else known by the living. They might be momentarily aroused from their comatose state by an especially distinguished newcomer, as in Isaiah 14, or (as we shall see) by a necromancer; but their normal condition was to be asleep. They were not completely non-existent, but to all intents and purposes they were, so to speak, next to nothing.
Then more on page 93
This explicit link of life with the land and death of exile, coupled with the promise of restoration the other side of exile, is one of the forgotten roots of the fully developed hope of ancient Israel. The dead might be asleep; they might be almost nothing at all; but hope lived on within the covenant and promise of YHWH.
“See,” Isaac sneers. “The dead aren't nothing at all, like you make them out to be. N.T. says that they could be woken up from their slumber, or brought back to life. What about that, your theory doesn't appear to be as strong as you say it is,” Isaac protests. “You were right though, about having to be careful who you believe and trust,” Isaac said with a distrustful tone in his voice as he looks at Adam warily.
“Yes, we do have to be prudent about where we get our information,” Adam agreed. Not acknowledging Isaac’s sarcasm. “Let’s hear exactly what Isaiah 14 says.”
Surprised by Adam's response, Isaac finds and then reads Isaiah 14.
“Isaiah 14 King James Version
1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
22 For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord.
23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts.
24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.
31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.”
“I don’t think you need to read quite as many verses to get to the point. The scripture I heard about the dead being woken up was around eight or ten. Could you read that part again,” Adam asks Isaac.
“Ya but I don’t want to miss the context, or anything important. Apparently I have made that mistake before and I want to get it right.” says Isaac with a sneer.
“8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.”
“That was it,” Adam said aggressively. “The language of this chapter is very poetic. It wouldn't be such a good idea to build a doctrine about the state of dead people from it. There are plenty of verses that tell us the dead know nothing, or that they are silent and can't even praise God. I'm surprised that N.T. hasn’t come up with a theory that tells us, the trees of the for
est can have rational thought and talk, using verse 8 as proof.
And you say that I can't be taken seriously as a credible source on what the Bible has to say. Do you call these verses credible as describing the true state of the dead, or are they poetic allegory and metaphor? Are these some of the verses you were talking about? Where you had to look at them as a whole, to understand how mankind has an eternal soul, verses that are taken out of their contextual meaning!”
Isaac defensively responds. “No! I hadn't thought of these verses, I can see how they seem poetic, the first verses were talking about Israel being re-established in their own land and how Babylon will be punished for its sins. I don't agree with N.T. that these verses are a description of the grave.”
“Oh,” Adam said sheepishly. “Well let’s hear the story about the necromancer. Maybe it will be more accurate in its description of dead people.”
“Got it coming,” Isaac said brightly. He scans the text to find the proper verse. “Let’s see, ya, this is it. 1 Samuel 28:6-25 KJV. I’ll read the whole story for context, if that’s all right?
6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.
22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.
23 But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.
24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:
25 And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.
11-19 are the verses mostly talking about bringing the dead back to life,” Isaac gives his overview of the scriptures he just read. “Now I must say, N.T. seems to have these verses in context.”
“Yes it does seem that way,” Agreed Adam. “It is a story about the dead. But was Samuel actually brought back to life? Or was Saul beguiled by the woman with the familiar spirits? In verse 13 we see that Saul didn't see Samuel, but took the woman's word for what she saw. We need to keep in mind that she had a familiar satanic spirit. These spirits are real; they are the ones who lead us away from the truths of God. She was often in contact with this spirit and was known for her visions. Verse 14 explains to us, Saul perceived that what she was describing was Samuel. He didn't actually see Samuel.”
“Yes but in verse 15 Saul talks to Samuel,” Isaac contends. “That would make Samuel alive, brought back from the dead.”
“I am surprised you think Satan has the power to raise the dead,” Adam says to Isaac as he steers around an upcoming pot hole. “I thought God was the only one capable of giving life. I'm sure I read that somewhere.”
Isaac pauses for a moment then nods his head as he searches the lap top files. Moments later he triumphantly says with a smile. “Here are a few places,
1 Samuel 2:6.
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
Deuteronomy 32:39.
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
John 1:3-4.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
“Well then,” Adam states matter of factually. “If it is only God who can raise the dead and God wasn't talking to King Saul, then what the woman saw couldn't have been Samuel the prophet of God, but was her familiar spirit giving her a message, that Saul perceived to be Samuel. Going by the scripture, when Saul bowed down, he would have been bowing to the woman who was seeing the vision. The familiar spirit may have been audibly talking through the woman directly to Saul. But to say that Samuel was brought back from the dead, by Satan, to speak to Saul using this passage as proof, displays a superficial understanding of what is actually going on.
As we have already found out, mankind is completely mortal. There is no part of us that lives on beyond our physical lives. God, who has a perfect memory, will re-create us within his time frame through a resurrection process. Once God resurrects us, we will be the same people we were before we died. Our neurological contacts and brain chemistry is what holds our emotions, memories, thoughts and personality. Once they are restored to their original state, we will be back to life as if we had never died.
The Bible does not tell us we have a conscious life after death, but rather tells us the opposite; it tells us we will have no thoughts or ambitions at all in the grave. We will sleep the slumber of death. That is why Christian’s incorruptible inheritance that is undefiled and doesn’t fade away, is reserved in heaven for us and will be revealed at our resurrection. Christians are resurrected into immortality, receiving their inheritance of eternal life at the return of Jesus, just as Jesus told us in John 6.”
“Let me read that last reference,” Isaac was quick to start a search.
After reading a couple of sites, Isaac finds the verses and reads them out loud. “I think this is it,
1 Peter 1:3-5.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I can see how you think that you’re right,” Isaac confesses. “But N.T. Wright, my professors and virtually all the published Bible scholars say you’re wrong. Why don't they agree with you if you are so right? They have studied the Bible more than you.”
Adam replies quickly. “I don't know why others that read the Bible fail to see what I see so clearly. Maybe that would be a good question for them,” Adam leans forward, resting his elbows on the large steering wheel as he stares ahead through the windshield. “I may not know much, but I do know what I read. Does the Bible contradict itself? I don't believe it will and I thought you believed that as well.”
“I do believe that,” Isaac asserted forcefully. “The Bible will not contradict its self.”
“Well then, can Satan raise the dead? Does he have power to bring the dead back to life here on the earth? If he does, show me you scriptural proof,” Adam pressed Isaac for scriptural proof. “As we have learned, assuming what the bible says is often a lot different than understanding what the scriptures have to say on a subject.
We agreed at the start, it isn't what people say that matters, it’s what God tells us through the Bible that's important. After reading the scriptures N.T. used to describe the dead in the grave I have to conclude that Mr. Wright was incorrect in his assessment of those verses. I agree with Paul and the Pharisees that the dead are just that, dead, with no attributes of life at all. The best analogy to describe death is the same one used in the Bible. It is like a deep sleep, knowing and thinking nothing.”
Adam pauses for a moment of reflection and then states with a hint of sadness in his voice, “It’s as though most Christians are living their spiritual lives in a post-truth reality. They think they are following the teachings of the Bible, but never take the time to prove their beliefs against what the Bible actually teaches.”
“What’s that? Are you making up words now too? Isaac scoffs derisively. “Post-truth? What’s that supposed to mean? Isaac is shaking his head in bewilderment.
“It’s a word that got used a lot during the Trump presidential campaign. It is was formally recognized as a word that same year, although I liked the Stephen Colbert word ‘truthiness’ better,” Adam responded without hesitation.
“I’d better look that one up for myself,” Isaac retorted, starting to type. “OK, so it is a word,” Isaac begrudgingly agrees. “Here is what the oxforddictionaries.com has to say about it,” He reads out loud, thinking the word will not apply to their conversation.
“adjective
Relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief:
‘in this era of post-truth politics, it's easy to cherry-pick data and come to whatever conclusion you desire’
‘some commentators have observed that we are living in a post-truth age’
This word is meant to be used in a political context, not in a religious one,” Isaac protested. “You’re taking it out of context.”
Adam responds coolly, “No I’m not! Denominations have always tried to shape public opinion with appeals to emotion and personal belief. It’s not only a political word. If Christians only use the objective facts from the Bible and if the Bible is the non-contradictory word of God, then why are there so many different denominations, with such a wide range of practice?”
Chapter 12
The Second Coming